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Author Topic: POW vs POS for Sexcoin  (Read 9465 times)

Bitice

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POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« on: May 31, 2015, 02:49:22 PM »
How does the dev team feel about POW vs POS for the coin?

Totally against it? Open to it but too complicated/costly?

Just wondering what the status is on this topic for Sexcoin.

Nerull

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2015, 09:44:09 PM »
personally i prefer PoS over POW by a large margin. I would just be a little concerned over how to implement a change like this at this stage tho

lavajumper

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 02:08:41 AM »
I've worked on some POS coinbases and my personal feeling is that they are not worth the trouble.
In no way am I saying its a bad idea, but it does introduce some scary side effects that make me shy away from it on a technical level.

I think if we were to start screwing around with the coin algorithm again, it would be to implement some of the anonymity aspects of coins like DarkCoin and BlackCoin. Particularly challenging from the algorithm side would be to implement anonymity AND age verification features, along with an in-client video chat which didn't reveal IP addresses. I think if Sexcoin were what I really wanted it to be, it would be all these things.

Nerull

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 06:40:45 AM »
would it be possible to have the body that will verify the ages be able to put a flag into the wallet/client/whatever that lets it only generate address with a prefix/suffix that is reserved for verified people?

Just out of curiosity what are the scary side effects of pos on the technical level?

lyno

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 10:19:38 AM »
I like the POS concept but I am not sure if it is a good idea to implement it into SXC at the moment, especially if it is technical tricky.  “Anonymity” always is good for marketing of course, especially today. But in the end, if you buy something, you need to provide at least a email address to get your goods or your login / download data. And, in case of physical goods, you have to provide a RL address anyway.

I still don't get how it should be possible, technically and legally, to include age verification, not to mention that it would kill any kind of anonymity approach. Plus, why should people use it?
SXC - S3UJ371J5M7SMjAxFMw8PrVo1Hnx75LVkf

Timelord2067

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 11:02:46 AM »
There's no reason why a Dev doesn't just ramp up a 10% PoS and watch their initial mining go gang busters in the "mined" PoS coins - I have a tiny amount of TAG coins and an even tinyer amount of CGB/CXB and when they stake to create a "mined" PoS block, 2/3rds time they are "Not recognised" by the chain (ie they are orphaned *even though* they are generating interest on already PoW coins.

I was in early on the 007 PoW PoS coin (just for a laugh & you never know - EAC has quadrupled since I last looked in going from 4 to 16 sats) with my just under 1Meg rig and after a week or two I started getting PoS "mined" coins but lo and behold orphans/not accepted by the chain even on 007 coin.

The person with the 26M SXC would wipe any other wallets PoS coins from being generated.

Would the PoS be back dated to when we mined them a year or more ago (mine have gone back and forth between wallets just now when I fixed a broken wallet, so there goes 12+ months of staking for those coins).

I'm dead set against PoS coins that come up as orphaned / not accepted by the chain.
BTC 1SExsxcbXWkuRbhLhKG1w8KgXp1eY1GbN | SXC SEXYKUp7CYWKLWr54UtBKVnfjoN13Ybpha |

Timelord2067

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2015, 11:06:52 AM »
Just one quick also point, I transfered my TAG in one hit to another wallet a while back and when the coins started PoS-ing, they didn't stake as on whole lump-sum, the PoS occurred in small chunks *even though* the coins were deposited in one lump sum (and supposedly the clock resets for all coins when they move wallets). (and half failed to PoS becoming orphans / not recognised by the chain)

And from what I can tell, TAG's price slumped when they ramped up the PoS to 5% from um, 2% previously.
BTC 1SExsxcbXWkuRbhLhKG1w8KgXp1eY1GbN | SXC SEXYKUp7CYWKLWr54UtBKVnfjoN13Ybpha |

Nerull

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 11:32:15 AM »
well xpy is PoS and ive only have a couple times where it has orphaned and it works fine. But like lyno said, other things should have priority

lavajumper

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 03:54:21 PM »
Admittedly, I would benefit a lot from POS on sexcoin.

From a technical side, adding in POS after mining has been going on for two years makes things very gooey. The technical 'scaries' are simply adding in YAMining algorithm, and how you actually code the acceptance of a block. The more complicated that code gets, the greater the chance of introducing an exploitable bug.  When you go in to fix that bug, you introduce more complexity, which believe it or not, now introduces another potentially exploitable bug.

And then, how do you make it 'fair'. If you introduce POS, counting from the time it switches in, all the people that have been holding get screwed. If you count from genesis, everyone that wants to jump on now really doesn't have a chance.

Also, I don't like rewarding people for hording. Sexcoin needs to be spent, and if we could come up with an algorithm to encourage spending, without letting everyone get rich from sending coins between their own wallets, I'd be ALL OVER that.


Bitice

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2015, 06:09:31 PM »
Glad to see a healthy discussion about this topic :) I dont know why but I have a soft spot for SXC, it just seems like such a natural step that once people have heard of Bitcoin they'll think Sexcoin next :)

I wasn't mentioning this to use as a PR stunt to drive up prices, there are plenty of coins to pump and dump. I'm more interested in the technical pros and cons of POW vs POS for a small coin like Sexcoin and getting the target audience to participate in the network. Each system has pros and cons and one of the cons of the POW system is if there aren't enough workers then the whole thing is vulnerable. Auroracoin is an example of that, it had someone attack and fork the chain just to prove it could be done to a small POW coin.

POS seems to need a bit of work to keep up to date. If you take a look at something like Vericoin you'll see they are constantly working on improving it. So would it be possible to clone the code from a successful POS coin (BLK or VRC for example) to SXC and keep it so that it would be easy to copy any future fixes they make to their POS system over to SXC? I'm asking to get a better idea on what options there are for a coin like SXC.

If keeping POW it would be nice to get more hashes on the network. One idea is to look into merge mining like Viacoin has done with good success to their hash rate. I dont know how complicated that is, as I said, just an idea.

I've seen the idea floating around for SXC for a long time of having a webcam suite in the SXC wallet, if this was to materialize and take off then users of SXC would be keeping their wallets open quite a bit so it would make sense to use that to the network's advantage by making the coin POS and letting users and performers know that keeping those wallets open is not only good for the coin network but they'll be earning a few coins as well, while watching cams and shopping for toys or whatever. It seems to go hand in hand.

As for the question of what's stopping the devs from messing with the POS percentage until it harms the coin.. that question can be asked about block rewards as well and what's stopping devs from messing with it. I imagine they don't mess with it because they want the coin to succeed, so any POS implementation would have to be carefully considered, of course. Hence this little discussion :)

lavajumper

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 09:12:50 PM »
so it would make sense to use that to the network's advantage by making the coin POS and letting users and performers know that keeping those wallets open is not only good for the coin network but they'll be earning a few coins as well, while watching cams and shopping for toys or whatever. It seems to go hand in hand.

That is an excellent point that I had not thought of!


I wasn't mentioning this to use as a PR stunt to drive up prices, there are plenty of coins to pump and dump. I'm more interested in the technical pros and cons of POW vs POS for a small coin like Sexcoin and getting the target audience to participate in the network. Each system has pros and cons and one of the cons of the POW system is if there aren't enough workers then the whole thing is vulnerable. Auroracoin is an example of that, it had someone attack and fork the chain just to prove it could be done to a small POW coin.

I'm a bit surprised that sexcoin hasn't gotten more attention. When max, digger, and btgreek picked up the ball, opinions were split about how successful sexcoin could be. Many were in the "OH HELL YEAH!" camp, and there were probably just as many "This is a real f**kin' JOKE" camp. Our biggest problem really has been adaptation. Litecoin, Bitcoin, Dogecoin and the other big ones have had devs throwing code and marketers pushing all kinds of services. That hasn't happened with sexcoin. I had always suspected the problem was myself and Digger trying too hard and unwittingly stiffling the marketing and service development, also I've always known that development has been too slow with the coin (mia culpa on that one too). I still stand behind the idea that merchant adaptation is the key to sexcoin's success, but that is so general its become a useless observation.

The reason I mention all this is that POW is a great algorithm, and one that I think is the right one for sexcoin. But as you pointed out, it works best for coins with more involvement, which we fully expected to happen. I've always had a hard time seeing how POS would induce merchants to accept sexcoin, which is really what I gauge every decision about the coinbase against.

All that being said, I think we do need to change something. Judging from the block solve times there is a vulnerability that needs to be closed up.



Nerull

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 01:02:05 AM »
yeah the lack of our network hash rate is whats seriously concerning me, its sitting at 300mhs atm, someone with a single good asic  could take over the network. While with PoS its more spread out. Also if someone has 26 million sxc i dont see them fucking the coin over just for lulz cause it will effect them most

Timelord2067

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 09:00:03 AM »
I wasn't meaning that Mr 26Mill would fuck the coin over, but the sheer number of coins staking and generating PoS mined coins would override other wallets trying to generate a PoS coin.

If someone were to either walk me through setting up a node or emailing a zipped up one I could just upload then I'd be willing to set a node up, (am still somewhat in the dark about which way the settxfee true 0.1 works out, do I get the coins or is that what I'm prepared to pay? Never got a payment, so unsure).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:08:42 AM by Timelord2067 »
BTC 1SExsxcbXWkuRbhLhKG1w8KgXp1eY1GbN | SXC SEXYKUp7CYWKLWr54UtBKVnfjoN13Ybpha |

lavajumper

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2015, 01:01:22 AM »
So as not to get off topic, I just moved my 'node' post here
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 01:06:31 AM by lavajumper »

pc

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Re: POW vs POS for Sexcoin
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 02:44:13 PM »
We've had the topic on the old forum, around the time scrypt ASICs came into existence.

The problem is that currently SXC is unsafe because of the low hashrate - anyone with a couple of ASICs can easily take over the blockchain.

Pure POS has its own problems, most importantly the nothing-at-stake problem. Mixed variants are also not easy to get right, see YACoin.

During the last couple of month I have become a big fan of DPOS (as used by BitShares).

But IMO before this question can be discussed reasonably, SXC needs a plan, and a strategy to put the plan into action. The consensus algorithm is only a technical detail.

 

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